Arun Shourie is an Indian economist, journalist, author and politician. Shourie, 76, was also a former cabinet minister in the AB Vajpayee government. Shourie, one of the petitioners in the Rafale Case, in an exclusive interview to CNBC-TV18 said If CBI were asked to probe the case right now, interim chief Nageswara Rao would kill it. He also said the government's unwillingness to disclose the price to the Supreme Court would indicate that even the chief justice of India (CJI) can't be trusted with commercial information.

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Watch: RBI governor Urjit Patel should stand firm against bullying, says Arun Shourie

Edited Excerpts:

We would like to begin by asking you about the Rafale deal, How significant do you think is this move by the Supreme Court to demand the pricing because there are now media reports which say the government will not reveal the pricing and say this cannot be done.

No, no but they (SC) have asked for three things. First, they have said we have read what you said on the procedure, we have read the other people also and therefore first give us more details on the procedure.

Second, on pricing and how the government arrived on it. And Attorney General KK Venugopal said that it is confidential, the court asked him to say that on an affidavit. I think Venugopal would be ill-advised to say it on affidavit because the fact of the matter is that former defence minister Manohar Parrikar said that we couldn’t buy 126 planes because that would have cost the country Rs 90,000 crore that comes to a price of Rs 715 crore per plane.

Second, the minister of state for defence in a written reply in the parliament has disclosed the price saying it is Rs 670 crore per plane.

Third, this Dassault and Reliance they have disclosed the price in their financial statement and in their annual report saying it is Rs 1,660 crore and then the security clause in the agreement does not relate to price, it relates to the technical specifications of the plane. And therefore, French President Emmanuel Macron when he was asked, he said it is entire upto the Indians as to how much they want to disclose.

So, in the face of all this, Venugopal denial to disclose the price in an affidavit would be very strange and it would also be a reflection of what the government thinks – that even the three judges including the Chief Justice of India cannot be trusted with commercial information.

Third, on the offset business. How did this private party come in, so give us the details. And give us details and give them to the advocates and the petitioners and person like us. Then, Venugopal said some official secret act, some information will be covered by that. He said you can deduct that. But then give us both statements. That means the CJI and his companion judges will see that have they withheld information from us, which should be in the public domain. This is a very significant order.

You have also asked SC for a monitored CBI probe. Did the happenings within the CBI over the last couple of months prompt you to as for that?

No, from the very beginning we have asked for a court-monitored thing because we know the conditions under which the CBI functions but certainly the happenings in the last few days strengthened that and Justice Ranjan Gogoi said first let the CBI set its own house in order.

The government feels this is not an embarrassment but that one line where they said that let the CBI probe wait, let the CBI puts its own house in order first, what kind of message does that send out?

They are dealing with the CBI and other matter that is all and it is true, supposing CBI was asked to enquire into it just now, yes Interim CBI chief Nageswara Rao and company will kill the investigation just now. So it is very good that first things should be sorted out, cleaned up and then our matter should be taken.

Just to focus on the tussle between the government and the RBI, the government is facing a lot of criticism for its dealings with the RBI and the specch by deputy governor last week was a case in point, where he said the government must not impeach on the independence of the Central Bank. Do you think that was a very strong warning to the government and that the government must listen to that?

Of course, it is one of the most important speeches given by a senior functionary of the RBI and we must compliment Viral Acharya for speaking up.

These (government) fellows regard all expertise and all institutions as obstacles, so they are suborning every institution -that is one point. The second point is that we should not think this is a tussle between the government as an abstraction and the Central Bank as an abstraction, there are corporate interest involved. That was the reason why Raghuram Rajan was really pushed out because he was insisting on ways of proceeding and ways of assessment that the names of these big defaulters were coming out. And he has then removed on account that his heart is not Indian and all sorts of bunk.

I had said at that time that corporate fellows are behind it, the same thing now. They are not getting any leeway, if they default in the power sector or in other sectors, for the government has brought them to this condition. Then the government wants to force the commercial banks to be more relaxed with them and the RBI new norms do not allow that. That is behind this controversy and they are as usual taking shelter under that we are doing this for small and medium enterprises- bunk.

It is also happening in the last six months of the Narendra Modi government. The government had put out a statement yesterday and it came from the finance ministry that the autonomy of the central bank within the framework of the RBI is essential and it will be respected. The government and the RBI have to be guided by public interest and extensive consultations take place between the government and the RBI and will continue. Do you think this statement has satisfactorily diffused the crisis?

How? You have to see the pattern of behaviour of the government, not go by daily statements like these fools in analysing the stock market -- at 4 pm nobody knows why something has happened and at 4.15 pm every analyst knows why it has gone up or down.

So don’t focus on the daily announcement, focus on the pattern of behaviour of a government over a long period. And it is not just regarding the RBI but regarding the cabinet, regarding the parliament, regarding the CBI, regarding the national investigation agency, regarding the courts. If the four judges had not saved us, just see where the SC would be today, where the collegium would be today.

I don’t know Urjit Patel and Acharya but if through you I can convey a message that just never be provoked by these characters, they are cowards, and these are bullies – bullies are always cowards. So, if you stand firm they will retreat but they will try to see where to get at you in other ways. So good persons should never resign, they must stand firm.

The longer these peoples’ assault continues, the better because more opportunity the country has to see their real design.

That is an important point that you make because the top RBI officials don’t speak very often?

They don’t speak very often and therefore their voice is heard when they speak. For instance, Venugopal Reddy, my friend Bimal Jalan (former RBI governors) whenever they speak they are heard. They should speak often but it is because they speak so little they are listened to with great reflection. But in this particular case, you don’t even have to speak that much. You just have to stand firm on the points at issue.

The government has written about three letters to the RBI in the last couple of months invoking Section 7 (1) - they say it hasn’t been invoked but they have begun a consultative process under Section 7 (1) of the RBI Act, which has never been used. What is the message this sends out?

That you are just going to be a department of the government, that is their design and the department of the government means, department of the Prime Minister and his coterie because there is no government.

Do you think this finance minister or somebody is functioning as a minister – he is a blogger. They are doing whatever is being asked for by the PM and the very small coterie but behind that coterie are corporate interests. So one must stand firm, and I think they (RBI) should keep notes of everything that happens and reveal them at an appropriate stage.

Do you think Urjit Patel’s position has now become untenable, do you think he should wait or should he now put in his papers. There has been so much of speculation over the past few days that the RBI governor may offer to resign?

That is what I have been telling you for the last few minutes that he must stand firm. There is absolutely no reason for good persons in the right to resign.

As Gandhiji’s said in the end even if you are dismissed you have served a purpose of giving a signal to the country that things are not as well as they seem on the surface.

He must stand his ground and must not go?

Yes, absolutely must not go.

And to stand up to whatever he has been telling?

Absolutely and take notes and reveal them at an appropriate time as to this is what was really happening.

You also touched up on the approach of the government towards the CBI, towards the parliament and the RBI as well. You said this was a larger problem and you cannot see this in isolation, it has been growing for the last several months?

Not months, years – this is the Gujarat Model. Was there a Cabinet in Gujarat, didn’t function. They were simply reduced to impotence. The police and the CID were just the private armies of the chief minister and the minister of state for home affairs. So exactly the same thing here, no cabinet, parliament reduced to irrelevance.

If I say these 14 Bills are Money Bills then the Rajya Sabha is hacked off. Then you try to make of the judiciary what you made of the judiciary there and you have made the investigative agencies your instruments.

So, now the institution of the RBI. You have done the same thing to educational institutions. So we must see the pattern and it is not a pattern of a few months, it is a record since the chief ministership of Gujarat till now – this is the Gujarat Model.

You are talking about the Gujarat Model and when we spoke about the crisis of the RBI, you said there are certain corporate commercial interests at play. Would you like the CBI and the SC-appointed probe committee to look at this commercial interests in this Rafale deal as well?

Of course, there is no doubt on that. In our petition, we have named Anil Ambani and we have shown how he was thrust into the deal by violation of every single offset guidelines. Similarly, in the defence procurement procedures. Certainly, that is one of the things that the SC has found favour with and said give us details as to how this offset partner came in.

Not only that, I would certainly think that list sent by Raghuram Rajan to the Prime Minister’s Office should be revealed. Just imagine this list cannot be given even to a parliamentary committee? That is the Gujarat Model.

I don’t agree with the RBI’s position, I think it was taken to SC for reasons of a fiduciary relationship between customer and banks, names cannot be revealed, you must reveal them. Who are these defaulters? I hope that the RBI would find a way to reveal the names and then the banks should be forced to say what you have done about these characters?

This is not their private money, its public money, as much as in Rafale deal, so also looting from the banks.

First Published:Nov 1, 2018 10:48 PM IST