Mukesh Ambani, Chairman and Managing Director, Reliance Industries believes that India is poised to be a global leader in clean energy production in the upcoming future. In a fireside chat with Raghunath Mashelkar at The Asia Economic Dialogue, he spelt out the need to shift to sustainable energy and how it was imperative we do so.

Below is the full transcript of the chat:

Dr Mashelkar (introduction): Very critical, very timely subject -green energy for our sustainable future. It’s a privilege and honour of introducing Mr Mukesh Ambani.

Ambani: Thank you, Dr Mashelkar for your kind words, you always encourage me and I have always looked up to your mentorship and your guidance. As I am virtually in Pune in this virtual world. Let me begin by paying my homage to my very good friend and an eminent citizen of Pune, Shri Rahul Bajaj, who passed away recently. He was my senior and one of India's most respected industrialists. My heartfelt condolences to his family.

Also Read: Rahul Bajaj was my senior and India’s most respected business leader: Mukesh Ambani at Asia Economic Dialogue

Dear Friends, I warmly congratulate the Pune International Center for organizing this important summit. Pune has always been a reputed centre of education, arts, culture, and industry, along with its strength in manufacturing Pune has also become a formidable hub of the IT industry. Now with events like this one, Pune has earned a place on the global map of intellectual discourse. I am sure Pune International Center will scale new heights of prestige and influence. And this is because of the leadership of two great men of vision and action, whom I deeply respect and admire you Dr Mashelkar, our guru of science and technology. You have planted into all of us, at Reliance, the seed of disruptive innovation and, for me, everything that you introduced was really the implementation of your vision. So I don't want to take that credit. All of us at Reliance will ever be grateful to you to have built-in Reliance and our young people this DNA of innovation, inventing, and trying to do what no one else has done.

The other leader at the Pune International Center is Dr Vijay Kelkar. Again, he is one that I have looked up to for decades and he has, not only with his vast knowledge of the economy of how India works, finance, he was when I was very young, and he was chairman of the ICP. He had mentioned to me that look, young man, the government can never be a profit guaranty corporation. And to hear that, in the early 80s really formed my vision of the world. And I am ever grateful for him and to build Reliance as an institution, which competes fairly and fiercely with the rest of the world, I think that I really look upon and thank Dr Kelkar for all the advice and the influences he has had on me over past many decades. So for me, it is a particular pleasure to be with all of you, I wish I could have been there physically, but times are getting to normal and it's really a privilege to be amongst both of you together. So thank you for this opportunity.

Q: As you know, we at Pune International Center are holding Asia Economic Dialogue 2022 with the support and blessings of our external affairs ministry. Our theme this year, as you know is resilient growth in the post-pandemic (COVID-19) world and before we begin our discussion on green energy for a sustainable future, may I ask you about your thoughts on Asia's future and the place of India in particular?

A: It is becoming more obvious with each passing year that the 21st century is Asia’s century. The centre of gravity of the global economy has clearly shifted to Asia. From the 1st century to the 18th century, Asia was leading the world in global GDP. After suffering the retreat in the last two centuries, Asia is now making a strong comeback. In 2020, Asia’s GDP, as we all know overtook the GDP of the rest of the world combined. By 2030, the Asian region is expected to contribute roughly 60 percent of global growth. We should also remember that Asia accounts for 60 percent of the world's population. More Asians will join the middle class in the next two decades than the combined population of all other countries, which means Asia is leading the march towards a more inclusive global economy. The mismatch between demography and development is closing. All this goes to show that resurgent Asia will contribute to a more equal world. This is a most welcome trend. The trend is also reinforced by the fact that India is likely to overtake Japan as Asia's second-largest economy and the oldest third-largest economy by 2030. Dr Mashelkar, I am very confident that the India growth story will be more exciting if not more than that of a child in the coming decades to come. It is India's time.

Q: Let me now turn to our theme, which is green energy for a sustainable world. Let me begin by asking you why green energy or in your words ‘new energy’?

A: To my mind, the answer is very simple and well-known. All of us, as humanity, have only one planet; there is no planet B. The only planet in the entire universe which is home to human life and to countless other living species is planet earth and planet earth is facing an existential crisis because of climate change. The climate crisis is essentially an energy crisis. The excessive use of fossil fuels in the past 200 years, has greatly endangered the fragile ecology of the planet. Of course, it has brought prosperity to a large part of the global community, but this prosperity has been at the cost of the planet's environment and ecosystem and therefore unsustainable. Climate change is the biggest threat today to mankind's future wellbeing. It is an even graver threat to plants and animal species, which are indeed, our planetary relatives; after all, humans, animals and trees are not adversaries competing for space on this planet. They are linked by countless forms of cooperation and symbiosis. As a lover of wildlife and nature, myself, and as someone who likes to spend time in nature parks, wildlife centuries, I can tell you that we have a responsibility to conserve all these precious gifts of Mother Nature and pass them on to future our generations. Therefore, the transition from old energy to new, green and clean energy is not an option. It is an urgent imperative. Our very survival depends on how quickly we embrace planet-friendly renewables like solar, wind and hydrogen.

Also Read: India must increase clean energy output at affordable prices: Mukesh Ambani

And one more thing, the energy transition will also determine the geopolitical transition in the 21st century. As you know, Dr Mashelkar, when wood was replaced with coal, Europe overtook India and China to emerge the world leader. Similarly, with the emergence of oil, the US and West Asia outgrew others. When India becomes not only self-sufficient in green and clean energy, but also a large exporter, it will help India emerge as a global power. India will demonstrate that prosperity for all people and prosperity for our planet are not mutually contradictory goals. This transition will have other benefits as well, such as a huge number of green jobs. It will also be massive foreign exchange savings since energy and electronics are today India's biggest imports. Finally, green and clean energy ensures better health and better quality of life for everyone on the planet. Therefore, I believe that the transition to new energy will indeed lead to a new earth-friendly industrial revolution.

Q: Earth Friendly Industrial Revolution - can you please explain this grand vision of yours to our audience of Asia Economic Dialogue 2022.

A: If we see the trajectory of the first three industrial revolutions, we find that they basically disrupted the harmony between human beings and nature. The economic growth in the past few centuries was premised on the principle of control and exploitation of nature and natural resources or earth's resources. In contrast, the transition to green and clean energy represents a disruption of a reverse kind. I think we are now beginning to learn from Mother Nature. Our new energy technologies are mimicking Mother Nature in so far as they convert sunshine and hydrogen in water into electricity. Mother Nature has also created a virtuous carbon cycle in which carbon is not a liability but an asset. In course of time, carbon capture utilization and storage technologies will contain scale and help reduce the carbon load in the atmosphere. There is another way in which new energy represents an earth-friendly industrial revolution. In the era of fossil fuels, industrial activities are highly centralized. This is because coal and oil are centralized in their origin and have to be transported at large distances. In contrast, in the coming era of abundant and affordable clean and green energy with utility-scale battery storage, it is possible to envision that every house, every farm, factory, and habitat could in principle free itself from the grid by generating its own power.

The world is also developing technologies that use less land to produce all the more we need. You always say that more from less, and that is what is happening at the world scale all around us, which means we can earmark more land for forests, which also acts as a natural carbon sequester. This is what I mean by the need to transition from industrial revolution to ecological revolution, or the Earth Friendly Industrial Revolution. The vision of an Earth-Friendly Industrial Revolution has prompted Reliance to adopt, care for the planet along care for the people as the guiding principle of everything we do in all our businesses and philanthropic activities.

Q: You have often talked about 3Ds, I remember, namely digitalisation, decentralisation and decarbonisation. And Reliance has been, of course, deeply involved in all 3Ds, but you have also always talked about your dream of India, not as a follower but a leader. India as a leader. Can India emerge as a global new energy leader?

A: I have absolutely no doubt that India can and India will emerge as a global new energy leader. Just see that we were among the first in the world where our renewable energy minister announced a hydrogen policy. When the world is still grappling with this, we have put our vision of exporting green energy out of India on the table. So we are early. I believe that our Prime Minister believes in ensuring that this next generation of Indians will not only be self-sufficient and Aatmanirbhar in their energy, but India can export green energy. And my optimism and confidence really stem from three further reasons. First, India is a country full of entrepreneurial spirit, innovation and youth. Second, we now have proactive and forward-looking policy support and action from our government, both at the central and state level. And third, now have assured financing options.

Let me elaborate Dr Mashelkar, I have immense faith in the ability of our young entrepreneurs. They are highly ambitious and highly talented and I am fortunate to see a lot of them in action all around. I foresee that at least 20-30 new Indian companies in the energy and tech space will grow as big as Reliance, if not bigger, in the next 10-20 years. Let me put this in perspective for our audience. It took Reliance about 15 years to become a billion-dollar company; 30 years to become a USD 10 billion, 35 years to become USD 100 billion company and 38 years to touch USD 200 billion. I have no doubt that the next generation of Indian entrepreneurs will achieve this in half the time. What this also means is that India's community of entrepreneurs will become broader and wealth creation will also become more inclusive. This makes India a more equal nation.

Let me make another prediction. India's technology and digital exports have risen to 150 billion from less than 10 billion 20 years ago. By 2030, I believe they will extend, Similarly, India's clean and green energy exports in the next 20 years, at the end of 20 years, also have the potential to have half a trillion dollars of export. In the last 20 years, we were known for India's emergence as an IT superpower. The next 20 years, I believe, will be along with technology, our emergence as a superpower in energy and life sciences. What is commendable is that the new energy business in India is standing on their own two feet with their own entrepreneurship, and very little support or basis of any great government subsidies. Technological progress will make energy affordable on the basis of commercial viability and it will be technology and the entrepreneurial spirit and the new business model that gives values to customers that will drive the business and not government subsidies. And that's encouraging about the new energy opportunities that I see.

Q: There is always a concern that technology must be backed up by policy investments. Do you foresee any hurdles there, of course, your effort to the progressive policy, but want to just revisit this particular part, so that we know how we are going and your views in terms of the future?

A: Let me share with you my perspective. India is today one of the most attractive opportunities for renewable energy investment anywhere in the world. As far as policy is concerned, at least I believe that the Government of India is extremely committed to promoting new energy and among all countries in the world we have been proactive, unlike in the past, and I believe that we are at the leading edge of policy development. And all of these policies are transparent and pro-consumer and the commitment begins at the highest level from our honourable Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi himself right from the days of Gujarat. As you know, he is a big proponent of renewable and clean energy. The government is proactive in meeting the financing needs of the new energy sector. The recent announcement in the Union budget about the launch of sovereign green bonds is a step in that direction. India achieved its target of 40 percent power generation of renewables; of the target that it had set for 2030 in 2021 itself. And I believe that we will be ahead of this target. India aims to achieve 500 gigawatts of renewable power capacity which I am sure we will meet. So right now, on the basis of what I see, I am very optimistic.

Q: You always tell us about speed, scale and sustainability in which again, Reliance is a leader. So coming to India, what are the other factors that will favour India's transition to new energy with speed and scale because time is that of the essence, and impacting the largest population is the big challenge. So what are those factors for fast transition?

A: As you and I both believe that India's progress is unstoppable. We will become a USD 5 trillion economy, we will become a USD 10 trillion economies; we can only argue about whether it will happen in 2025 or 2027 and whether USD 10 trillion will happen in 2030 or 2032. So, when that happens, the quality of life of every Indian has to improve. Today, our per capita energy consumption is 1/3 of the world. I think that for quality of life for all Indians, we will have, India's own domestic demand for energy will be enormous. Indians are already known for having one of the most eco-friendly and sustainable lifestyles. An average Indian’s annual carbon emission is about 1/5 of the average Chinese or 1/8 of the average American. So, even if it increases, we will be able to meet. In fact, an average Indian’s carbon emissions are less than half of the world average. Indians won't have to make too many lifestyle changes to become carbon neutral. India's per capita income by today is about USD 2,000 compared to Europe's USD 38,000. I believe that progressively we will reach USD 10,000 per capita in the next 15 to 20 years. This will increase our energy demand and at the same time, we will be able to meet our incremental energy at affordable rates because of the progress that we are making in technology and because of the abundance of renewable resources that nature has blessed our country with. So, I believe that India will be among the fastest-growing large economy and our energy needs are going to double in the next couple of decades, India will overtake the European Union as the world's third-largest economy, in my view, by sometime around 2030-2032.

So, India has to address its triple challenges. One, India must increase energy output to drive double-digit GDP growth, and we have to do it at an affordable basis on the use of technology. Second, India must increase the share of green and clean energy in this enhanced output. And third, India must achieve the goal of self-reliance or AatmaNirbhar Bharat in pursuing the above two challenges. This, of course, cannot happen overnight. For the next two or three decades, India's dependence on coal and imported oil will continue, but we must have a plan to eliminate that in the next two or three decades. Hence, in the near and medium-term, we will have to follow low carbon and low carbon strategies of development. An affordable and abundant supply of clean energy will enable every Indian and improve their standard of living without disturbing the ecological balance. And this generation has the responsibility to put successive generations on a path whereby we remain perpetually clean. We have the responsibility of being the transition generation.

Q: There are new energy technologies, some of which we are creating, some of which we are adopting, but the essence is doing it swiftly. Do you think India can embrace these new energy technologies swiftly?

A: I think that, from my experience and my perspective, this is modular and decentralised. When we build decentralised plants or when even build nuclear plants for energy, they take a lot of upfront design, they take a lot of infrastructures and they take between 4 years and 6 years. What happens in the decentralised energy world is -- yes, you take some time to innovate, get the product right, but then there is modular execution. So this is the same as exponential change. We all know that exponential -- if you walk 20 linear steps you will walk 20 meters, right? If you walk 20 exponential steps, you will go 20 times around the world. Clearly, I think all of us will be surprised by the rate at which this technology catches up because it is decentralised. Once you have the right efficiencies then you do not need to really – and I say it very simple to all our people that this is about everybody can run at their own speed at their own things, you are not holding hands and running so that everybody does not fall down at the same time and that is why it's completely different execution and I am a believer in decentralised execution.

Q: Right from a phone call at the cost of a postcard to your days, when you said voice is free. You always set audacious targets and your targets have excited the whole world.

A: We really believe that in the next decade we have to shoot to make sure that we bring about all these technologies, I mentioned, to produce hydrogen at USD 1 a kilo, and make sure that we transport and converted also at less than USD 1 a kilo. And from my point of view, I am your chela (a Sanskrit term for a person who follows a guru) and Professor MM Sharma’s chela, so I like first principles and fundamentally, this is as near to start geometry as we can get. So we have left not much space. So if we can do this, we cannot do any better. I have always believed that aiming high and failing is allowed, but aiming low is not allowed. So that was the reason behind this impossible goal. Whereas, as we work on it, it doesn't look that impossible. I think that we will be able to do plus minus 20 percent of that, but aiming high is always good.

Thank you, Dr Mashelkar, as usual, it was always an engaging conversation. And I just wanted to summarise my 5 key messages for your audience, First is that the climate crisis and existential crisis for planet earth and the entire world must overcome this crisis with the highest level of co-operation and partnership. The second is that we as humanity and the world must make a rapid transition from old energy to new energy, which is necessary for mankind's larger transition from an industrial revolution to an ecological or earth-friendly revolution that we must all embrace. The third is that India will lead this transition from fossil fuels to green and clean energy and will become a leader in solar and hydrogen energy in the coming decades. It's an opportunity what seize for India as we march from our 75th anniversary of India's independence this year, to our centenary, in 2047. Fourth is our young and super talented entrepreneurs will make India a green energy superpower in the next 20 years, in the same way, that India became an IT superpower in the last 20 years. And finally, the fifth is that we, at Reliance, are deeply committed to playing a leading role in creating India's green economy with large scale generation of green employment opportunities across India and I once again wish everybody, at the Pune International Center, my warmest greetings and thank you very much for inviting me for this chat with you Dr Mashelkar.

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